patterson crankset noise

edited July 2017 in Rover
@Florida_bound

if the noise is a light clicking in overdrive, normal. loud clicking underdrive, abnormal.

you might find this review interesting:
http://bicycletimesmag.com/review-fsa-metropolis-patterson-transmission/

asleep at the wheel, i fear. had pulled the pattersons off the trikes, needed 22 teeth on the rambler, tinkering with a derailleur post on the rover, 2 chainrings and various derailleurs and hangers. then came the delta interest [a rover seat fits a jouta delta very nicely, needed upgrade].

anyway, put the memory in gear and back when, thought it kinda neat to be able to tell when the overdrive was turned on by the sound.

sorry if i have led you astray.

Comments

  • The clicking is normal? Thanks! I'll just have to add my speaker again and listen to music on the ride to drown out that sound.
  • I finally had a chance to read the review you provided, Jamesr. Strong storms are taking out the power and cable this morning.

    Good info. I guess I hear the clicking more because it's in front of me, not below me,

    I wish the two gears had totally independent ranges. I go from 2nd in the high gear to about 5th in the low gear. You don't want the pedal effort to change too much when changing from one Patterson gear to the other. I am learning how to use both gears more and more each ride.
  • edited August 2017
    I wish the two gears had totally independent ranges. I go from 2nd in the high gear to about 5th in the low gear. You don't want the pedal effort to change too much when changing from one Patterson gear to the other. I am learning how to use both gears more and more each ride.

    This is typical for all gearing options. Even the Schlumpf HSD has some overlap with it's massive 2.5:1 increase in gearing. My 7L is roughly the same as 1H and 8L roughly the same as 2H. This is with the stock 27T which is then geared up to a 68T when in high.

    The Mountain Drive (Schlumpf) goes the other way, going DOWN in range.

    Spend some time at a good gear calculator such as Sheldon Brown's found here: http://sheldonbrown.com/gear-calc.html The Patterson comes stock with a 28T and when in high goes to a 45T. You need to know how many teeth the sprocket on your hub has to get the full picture.

    Even the doubles and triples you hear others talking about have the same issue. The idea is you pick the front based on the majority of the ride, and adjust the back to fit the specifics. If you need higher, you go to higher tooth counts up front, which raises the whole range.

    Bike (and trike) gearing isn't like in a car, where you start in 1st and move through the gears sequentially until you hit the desired speed. and then move back through them as you slow down. They are designed with overlap to make it easier to find a "range" and then adjust the rear to fit the needs.
  • "Even the doubles and triples you hear others talking about have the same issue. The idea is you pick the front based on the majority of the ride, and adjust the back to fit the specifics. If you need higher, you go to higher tooth counts up front, which raises the whole range."
    Yup.
  • "Bike (and trike) gearing isn't like in a car, where you start in 1st and move through the gears sequentially until you hit the desired speed. and then move back through them as you slow down. They are designed with overlap to make it easier to find a "range" and then adjust the rear to fit the needs."

    Just to be clear, this is true for multiple chain ring setups on bike/trike, but not really valid for those who ride with just and internal 8 gearing system. When riding exclusively with these (and most internally geared hubs?) a rider can go up sequentially (like driving a manual shift car) and then back through those gears as you prepare for a stop. I certainly agree that unlike down-shifting a car, which actually slows you down, down-shifting your internally geared TT i8, will not slow your trike down.
  • Sorry guys, I simplified things a bit much.

    The front gearing is what I was referring to when I said it's not like a car. For those that have doubles, triples or an internally geared front, such as the Patterson or the Schlumpfs, there will be overlap.

    Combining front and rear gearing isn't linear. They overlap in some cases by a pretty large amount. A 22/32/42 with an 8-speed internal should give you 24 gears, but you are going to have several in both low and high ranges overlapping the middle. The entire middle range is going to be duplicated at some point, in one of the other ranges.

    So while you have 24 gears or speeds, in reality you have 12-16 different gears to work with across the entire range.

    Down shifting a bike does slow you down, if you can't maintain the cadence. BUT, it doesn't work like in a car at all. The car's engine revs up to the new, lower gear and then settles down to the throttle control, slowing you down. Bikes are similar, but not as immediate. If you pedal at 60rpm in 8th and down shift to 6, you are going to need to maintain 70rpm or higher to maintain the speed. Hence you DO slow to the new gearing as the trike naturally slows to your cadence.

    I knew I over-simplified things, but I also hope that this does make a bit more sense to @Florida_bound to explain how the gearing really works.

    To get a true 16 speeds, the Patterson would need to have the 28T stock and go to something like a 72T or 75T to make 1H the next logical step after 8L. (My Schlumpf is 27T to 68T and there is still overlap... And 68T is more than this two legged engine can spin in 8th.) As it is now, you use the Patterson to ride the flats in either high or low, change to low for climbing a hill, and to high for downhill runs. These are ranges, that give you the 8 speeds of the rear adjusted by the range you are in.
  • Elrique64 wrote: »
    Sorry guys, I simplified things a bit much.

    The front gearing is what I was referring to when I said it's not like a car. For those that have doubles, triples or an internally geared front, such as the Patterson or the Schlumpfs, there will be overlap.

    Combining front and rear gearing isn't linear. They overlap in some cases by a pretty large amount. A 22/32/42 with an 8-speed internal should give you 24 gears, but you are going to have several in both low and high ranges overlapping the middle. The entire middle range is going to be duplicated at some point, in one of the other ranges.

    So while you have 24 gears or speeds, in reality you have 12-16 different gears to work with across the entire range.

    Down shifting a bike does slow you down, if you can't maintain the cadence. BUT, it doesn't work like in a car at all. The car's engine revs up to the new, lower gear and then settles down to the throttle control, slowing you down. Bikes are similar, but not as immediate. If you pedal at 60rpm in 8th and down shift to 6, you are going to need to maintain 70rpm or higher to maintain the speed. Hence you DO slow to the new gearing as the trike naturally slows to your cadence.

    I knew I over-simplified things, but I also hope that this does make a bit more sense to @Florida_bound to explain how the gearing really works.

    To get a true 16 speeds, the Patterson would need to have the 28T stock and go to something like a 72T or 75T to make 1H the next logical step after 8L. (My Schlumpf is 27T to 68T and there is still overlap... And 68T is more than this two legged engine can spin in 8th.) As it is now, you use the Patterson to ride the flats in either high or low, change to low for climbing a hill, and to high for downhill runs. These are ranges, that give you the 8 speeds of the rear adjusted by the range you are in.

    I think that today, most people don't bother to figure out the gear inches for each gear when they have questions about gearing or plan to make a change. When riding or purchasing a bike or trike, that is the first thing I want to know about it, same goes for making changes in gearing. I see so many forum questions, about gears and tire size, where it is obvious that the person has no understanding of gear inches.
  • The Patterson crank works very well climbing the hills. In the past, I had been unable to turn the crank up some hills like when I had to stop for a light.

    On the downhill, I have gotten up to 14 mph and don't know how much faster I want to go. I had only gone about 12 mph with a single front crank. Plus, I went from a 32T to a 38T crank which would cause real problems for the hills here.
  • My Sturmey-Archer 8 speed is, in reality, more like a 10-speed with 2nd and 9th broken. That's due to the 14% jump between 1st and 2nd, and 7th and 8th, while all other gears are 7%. So you can think of it as a 10 speed with 2nd and 9th broken.

    Now taking the normal single front of 32T and changing that to a 22/32/42, I did NOT turn my 10 speed into a 30. In reality I gained 2 or 3 lower and 2 or 3 higher, so AT MOST I get a range like a 16 speed.

    On a long straight or downhill I shift the front to the 42T and try to maintain 60 - 70 RPM cadence. The addition of the larger front wasn't just to "get higher" but in fact to slightly raise the overall speed, for the same cadence, throughout the ride. I gained about 1MPH overall avg speed using the big ring.

    The negative? Lord help you if you need to stop on an uphill - the lowest low while in the big ring just doesn't cut it. It's like 4th or 5th in the 22T ring.

    I think the strangest thing for me is the fact that the distance between rear gears CHANGES based on the front ring. In the regular 32T ring, each gear has a "known" difference. In the 22T, the difference is much slighter and I usually change 2 gears at a time. In the 42T ring, even one gear change feels like a significant change. Of course it's all due to the fact that it's a % change and not a fixed tooth count change in the SA.

    All that being said, @Florida_bound, from what I've read from you, perhaps just changing your front 32T to a 22T (no others, just the 22) might be all you need to get perfect comfort for your rides. You aren't a speed demon, so you don't need the 42T. You just want the hills to be a little bit easier, right? So just stick with a single in front and make it a 22T vice the Rover default 32T.
  • Jrobiso2 wrote: »
    All that being said, @Florida_bound, from what I've read from you, perhaps just changing your front 32T to a 22T (no others, just the 22) might be all you need to get perfect comfort for your rides. You aren't a speed demon, so you don't need the 42T. You just want the hills to be a little bit easier, right? So just stick with a single in front and make it a 22T vice the Rover default 32T.

    The smallest ring you can get is a 28T for the Patterson. Remember, this is an internally geared crankset, so you have to look at what options are available for it. You can get larger, but smaller isn't available.

    The distance between the gears isn't dependent on the front. It is impacted by the front. The change is still 14% between 1st and 2nd and 7th and 8th. And the change is 7% between the others. But the range is so much lower with the 22T that the differences are so slight.

    Again, I'm going to suggest that some time be spent exploring a good gear calculator. http://sheldonbrown.com/gear-calc.html is still one of the better ones out there. Based on my limited research with the SA, it has similar GI at 3L as it does on 1M. This means that the low only gives you 2 additional lower gears than a 32T would have.

    It also only gives you 1 effectively different gear for the high range, then what you would get with a 32T. (Based on a 42T high)

    The reasons why comes down to the same reason you wanted to go with a triple front. You wanted lower lows and higher highs. So you got a couple lower and one higher. To get a higher or lower range, you need to have bigger differences. Something more like what the Patterson does with its 28T/45T. Or the Schlumpf HSD with the 27T/68T. These are still going to have some overlap, but not as much as the 22/32/42 has.
  • I meant in place of the Patterson. Just a regular 22T front ring.
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